Joel Fuhrman, M.D., is a board-certified family physician and nutritional researcher who specializes in preventing and reversing disease through nutritional and natural methods. He is the author of several books, including the New York Times bestsellers Eat to Live: The Amazing Nutrient-Rich Program for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss and Super Immunity. He is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine and the research director of the Nutritional Research Foundation. Dr. Fuhrman is also on the science advisory board of Whole Foods Market.
Caryn Hartglass: Hello everybody, I’m Caryn Hartglass. You’re listening to It’s All About Food. Thank you for joining me on this February 12, 2013. It’s a beautiful day here in Manhattan, and I am so glad you’re joining me today. It is going to be a great program because my first guest, and I want to get right to it, one my very favorite people on the whole planet and the best doctor that I know, Dr. Joel Fuhrman. He is a board certified family physician and nutritional researcher who specializes in preventing and reversing disease through nutritional and natural methods. He is the author of several books including the New York Times‘ bestsellers Eat to Live: The Amazing Nutrient-Rich Program for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss, and Super Immunity. He is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine and research director of The Nutritional Research Foundation, and he is also on the science advisory board of Whole Foods Market. Dr. Fuhrman, welcome to It’s All About Food.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Hi, it’s great to be here.
Caryn Hartglass: Hi. I know you’re busy doing so many wonderful things, saving so many lives and helping so many people, and I’m really grateful to have you here for this moment.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Thank you!
Caryn Hartglass: Thank you. I have read all of your books and I’m a big fan. I read a lot of these health books, and yours are clearly the best on so many levels. I’m so glad that you have been on the best seller list of The New York Times. What is it now, Eat To Live has been there for over 80 weeks, and now you have this second book The End of Diabetes? A well deserved congratulations to you.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Thank you! Yes, it’s really exciting. The book has only been out, I think, about a month, or so, and it’s already on the ten best seller list, so people are really analyzing it, and…..
Caryn Hartglass: They’re eating it up!
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Right, they’re eating it up!
Caryn Hartglass: So I have a lot of questions, and I posted to my listeners and readers that you were going to be on the show today. I did get responses, so I’m hoping we can address some of these questions.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Sure.
Caryn Hartglass: There are a lot of really interesting things in the this book that I didn’t know about, and I want to start by talking about beta cells because that is so related to diabetes and why people have the reactions they do. So can we talk a little bit about beta cells, how genetics are involved and how eating affects them?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Of course, let’s do it.
Caryn Hartglass: So from what I read, I understand that some people have less beta cells, genetically?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Yes, that’s right. We are talking here right now about adult onset or type 2 diabetes which is mostly caused by people becoming overweight and the extra stress being overweight places on the pancreas. The main thing is that fat on the body blocks the uptake of insulin. Because your cells can’t utilize the insulin and the uptake is blocked, the beta cells in the pancreas then respond to that by producing extra insulin. So maybe you have an extra 10 pounds of body weight, and your body produces 1- 1/2 times as much insulin as a person of normal weight; whereas, if you have 30-40 pounds of extra body weight, your body would produce 4-5 times as much insulin. Your beta cells in the pancreas keep chugging along and making the insulin the body needs, except after a number of years, the beta cells will kind of “poop out” not being able to keep up with this huge demand required by this overweight person. Then their ability to produce this insulin starts to drop. That amount of insulin, even after it drops, is still greater, almost all of the time, than a person of normal weight might need. Yet, it’s still not enough to produce the excessive demands of the overweight body. Now, as you were suggesting, some people who are overweight can keep secreting abnormally high amounts of insulin their whole life and never become diabetic and with other people the beta cell reserve and the capacity of the beta cells to produce so much insulin, genetically, is somewhat limited. So they are more prone to developing type 2 diabetes. So in all cases all overweight people have more circulating insulin, and the beta cells are being overworked to reduce this insulin. Insulin, itself, promotes cancer. Insulin, itself, is a fat storage hormone and has pro-angiogenesis properties which means, “fat, go ahead and grow, cells reproduce, I’m going to feed you with fuel and bring oxygen nutrients to you, and my angiogenesis promoting effects are going to help the blood vessels grow into you to be travel networks, the roadway, to bring you food and oxygen.” So that’s what insulin does, and when you are overweight you are essentially fueling fat. The more glucose you eat, the more sugar you eat, the more insulin-promoting foods you eat, obviously, putting sugar in your blood stream all of the time, promotes the storage of fat.
Caryn Hartglass: So whether or not you are diabetic, if you are overweight you are producing too much insulin, and that’s going to have all kinds of health problems. Not necessarily diabetes, perhaps, but you could have all kinds of other problems, and it’s not a good thing.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: That’s right. So that is why one of the main reasons being overweight increases the risk of heart attack and cancer is because our body has higher levels of circulating insulin. One way of measuring the body’s level of circulating insulin is putting a tape measure around your waist.
Caryn Hartglass: (laughing) You don’t need a sophisticated diagnostic tool for that?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Correct.
Caryn Hartglass: Okay. It’s always good to have a little humor when talking about these things. You have a great little graph in your book. It is so simple, and when I saw it and understood it, I went “Wow”. Can we talk about glycolysis, what it is, and how important it is?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Yes. What happens is that the body takes the glucose into the blood stream, and we use that for energy to live our life, but the body only burns about 40-50 grams of glucose per hour. So what happens when we eat a meal and we flood the body with all of these calories? We store it, and the glucose that we are not burning the body stores, primarily, as glycogen. Now, when we are not eating, not digesting food anymore for three, four, five hours later, as the candle burns down, we are slowly going to be fueling our body off that glycogen, and the glycogen stores will be gradually depleted like burning the gasoline in our car, driving a car around. So we are going to store the glucose as glycogen and we’re going to burn it off, and when the glycogen is eventually depleted, we normally get a signal to eat again and then it’s time to replenish or glycogen stores to keep our glucose levels consistent so that our brain and the rest of our body can function normally. Basically, 80% of our body’s energy needs at rest are being utilized by the brain, and the brain under normal conditions can only function on glucose, so we have to keep the glucose coming in continually to fuel the brain.
Caryn Hartglass: But what you said is that during this period of glycolysis, after the body has gotten the glucose it needs and we have this period in between meals, there are a lot of things going on such as moving waste. You mentioned that if we eat too quickly by snacking or just eat all of the time, we don’t give our body enough time to go through this period so that it can remove waste. I thought that was fascinating. I never knew that.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: That’s right. So we are saying that glycolysis is normal and necessary. It is essential for the body’s systems and rhythms. The body works in cycles of resting, digesting, resting and cleaning, digesting and storing, over and over again. We call it the catabolic phase, or the breakdown phase. So we eat and we’re in the build up phase, we then break down the food we eat and utilize and store it away in our body as fat or glycogen, and then we are going to not eat and live off what we just stored, and that’s called the catabolic phase of the digestive cycle, burning up what we just stored. It’s like you took your car to the gas station and filled it with gas and then drove it around, pretty much emptying the tank, and then refilled it again; but, what most Americans are doing is taking the car from the gas station, and they drive it around for just one block, a 20-gallon tank. So only driving it around for one block and then bringing it back to the gas station to fill it up again, with the gas tank not being elastic, you will pour gasoline all over the street. In the case of the human body, though, we do have an elastic gas tank. We can fill it up again when there is no need for energy, and the body will store the extra energy it does not need as fat on the body, getting bigger and bigger. I am saying two things here: Number one, the body has signals that tell us exactly when we should refill our gas tank, and those signals supply our body and our brain with a perfect amount of energy we need to sustain and maintain a perfect, normal weight. The weight that leads to a lean body mass maximizing muscle with no fat storage on the body. That’s called true hunger. True hunger exists as a precise computer to give us the exact amount of calories we need to maintain a perfect body weight without getting any fat on the body. If you become overweight, here’s the point. You would have to be eating outside of the demands of true hunger, recreationally, with addictive drives, toxic hunger, I call it, a low nutrient diet driving you to eat when you are not hungry. When you are feeling weak, headachy and fatigued so that you think it’s time to eat and you think you’re hungry, it’s because your dietary quality is poor. Now you feel detox symptoms, or withdrawals due to your poor diet, driving you to eat excess calories. Lastly, the point you were just making earlier, I am suggesting that the scientific literature points to the fact that the longer we live in a catabolic phase digestive cycle, the longer life we’ll have. Let me say that again so that people can understand me here. What I am saying is that the longer we live our life in that part of the phase of the digestive cycle when we are not digesting and eating, that means the space between meals where we are working, talking, walking, and living life not putting food in our mouth, the longer we space our meals out when are not feeding our body, the longer we will live. This is because in your body, essentially, almost all healing, self-repair, and rejuvenation of tissue is occurring in that catabolic phase when you are not digesting food. The micronutrient intake of most Americans is so poor and deficient in phytonutrients and oxidants, that they feel so ill the minute they start to detoxify or repair and then feel like they have to keep feeding the body all the time. So they are snacking all day, going from one meal to the next without any catabolic phase and even eating late at night, big meals with concentrated calories so difficult to digest that they keep the body’s digestive tract going for three, four, five hours after a meal. With the body still digesting, the body never gets to rest. Thus, they develop heart disease, cancer, diabetes and other diseases from extreme overeating. So I am suggesting that the primary foundation of all of these difficulties is micronutrient deficits and poor quality foods, eating processed foods, eating bagels, donuts, cookies, crackers, soda, bread, oils, meats, cheese, all these foods that do not contain the micronutrient load, the antioxidants, the phytochemicals, all of the thousand nutrients we know are in nature’s kingdom that the human body and other primates thrive on. When you don’t eat them you are going to get unrelenting desires and cravings to overeat, even perverted cravings to overeat foods, laying the foundation of the American heart attack, diabetes, and obesity epidemic.
Caryn Hartglass: You give this analogy to cars and fuels. Unfortunately, I do know some people who like to fill up the car very frequently, apparently very nervous about running out of gas. I do think a lot of people treat their cars better than they do their own bodies, buying the high octane, more expensive, fuels, but they don’t think about quality fuel for their own body. It’s a great analogy, people’s cars and their own bodies.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Yes, I guess in life you can get another car, but you only get one body. Once you have damaged it, that’s it, it’s still yours. So you’re right, it’s utterly amazing how most people are completely oblivious to what they do when young, and they pay the price for it later on in life. My daughter and I were just talking about what you do when you’re young, whether it’s education, taking care of your health, saving money, or let’s say, just having good posture, talking about doing things in athletic careers, hurting your joints when you’re young, you will pay a price with knee pain when you are older. So we are talking here about preventative care, doing things intelligently for your future that young people don’t do. We think when we are young we are not vulnerable to anything, so we have to really think about this for a minute. We are not talking about just how long we are going to live, we are talking about living a quality life, being able to enjoy our later years, not being in pain, having our full mental faculties intact, having our full vision intact. You know, of course, this is a really serious subject, and you know I am on a mission to get this subject out. Diabetes is the leading cause of blindness, the leading cause of leg amputation, the leading cause of kidney failure. We are talking here not just about the 500 billion a year in needless health care cost, we are talking about the needless human suffering. Now nutritional science has advanced to the point that we have a preponderance of evidence showing that you don’t have to have diabetes. Also, it’s really important to say that people take medications thinking they are controlling it. I get these emails from people saying “I have controlled blood pressure. My diabetes is controlled.” CONTROLLED?! You are on medication, but you still have it! Studies show that you are still going to develop macular degeneration and all of these problems, so you have to get rid of it. You have to show me you have normal numbers without medication. You have to have normal blood pressure without the need for blood pressure medication. You have to have a normal blood glucose without the need for diabetic medication. Then you are protected. Then you are not going to have the stroke or heart attack, not going to get demented. You won’t have to go blind later in life. The more you need medications, the more dependent you are, means the more tendency you have to the disease and the more damage occurring to your body, ongoing. The medications give people a false sense of security that they are protected, and they lead people down the wrong path. It’s so true with diabetic medication, and Caryn, you might be familiar with the ACCORD study where they took diabetics and gave them better medical care, more attention to their glucose. So they had two groups, one group being the typical group– didn’t go to doctors as often, forgot to take their medications, were not medicated as carefully–and the other group had really top-flight medical care, the best doctors, more visits. The group that had more medical care, better control of their glucose with better use of medications, were dropping off like flies. They were dying at such an increased rate that the government had to stop the study. The doctors were saying, what’s this result with more medical care, better care? WELL, OF COURSE! You can’t push the glucose down with a drug. You have the beta cells, we just talked about, in the pancreas failing from overwork. So you give patients a drug making them gain weight which makes the pancreas work harder. You take insulin putting more fat on the body to push the sugar down? That is going to accelerate the degenerative process. The point is there is nothing else you can do except eat right, exercise getting in great shape and taking great care of your health because drugs are not the answer to what ails us. The medical profession does not have the magic pill like in some fairy tale, that will take care of our problems. It just doesn’t work that way.
Caryn Hartglass: You even write in your book that insulin and some other medications make diabetes worse in that it makes you want to eat more which aggravates the situation even more.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: That’s right because the medications lower the blood glucose. They are angiogenesis promoting, helping the body store fat, increasing your hunger leading to weight gain. So you become more diabetic and you are back to the doctors again getting more medication. It’s absolutely insane. You think, how many people have diabetes? About 40% of our population, presently, has pre-diabetes or diabetes, and about 70-70 percent are overweight. Besides that we are talking about reversing high blood pressure, reversing heart disease, and getting back into great shape again. We are talking about people who are willing to take the toxic medications in their mouth twice a day but aren’t willing to walk up a few flights of stairs twice a day. They aren’t willing to take a walk for 20 minutes twice a day. The point is that the exercise has been shown over and over again to be much more efficacious than just taking drugs. I ask people how often they take the drug. Everyday? Twice a day? They tell me, “yes, twice a day, just how my doctor prescribed it.” People look at me like I’m nuts when I say why do you take the drugs twice a day, but you won’t exercise twice a day?
Caryn Hartglass: But that’s too difficult.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Right. The point is, if we’d never had these medications, people would be forced to change the way they ate, forced to exercise regularly, and we would have a population without diabetes, without this nutritional stupidity. On the other hand, unhealthy food is so powerfully addicting. It takes over the mind in a way that people can’t rationally think, act, behave or control themselves. They have become food addicts which is every bit as powerful as cocaine, heroin or tobacco. So food is very addicting, but here’s the thing, most dietologists will say to me oh yeah, yeah, I know that works, but we can’t get our patients to do that. The American Diabetic Association says the reason we have to give everybody drugs is because people won’t eat right, which is essentially double talk for saying that the diets we are giving people don’t work. The point is that when eating a high nutrient diet your taste buds change, your appetite goes down. We can beat food cravings and food addictions but we have to teach people how to do this with a higher intake of high nutrient foods, not by willy-nilly cutting back calories and trying to eat less. That never works. So our taste buds can be retrained, and the body can learn to like healthy foods just as much as it likes unhealthy foods. It’s called a no-brainer.
Caryn Hartglass: We like this food more! I love my food, and you don’t know how good you can feel until you are feeding your body properly.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: That’s right. You like the food more, and you are enjoying it even more not only emotionally but, at the same time, intellectually because you know it’s good for you.
Caryn Hartglass: Can we talk about resistance starch? So I was reading about this in your book, and I just loved what I was reading, the discoveries about resistance starch. It’s almost like you can eat things, and you think you are getting so many calories, but you are not.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Yeah, I think nutrition is really fun.
Caryn Hartglass: It is fun!
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Because the more we learn, the more it shows why we should be eating certain foods and why they work. We are talking about foods like greens, beans, squash, eggplant and cauliflower. Why is it that these foods, for example, don’t raise your glucose, don’t make you gain weight, don’t cause diabetes as do other carbohydrates like white rice or white potatoes which may raise your blood glucose more. One of the reasons why is that beans contain two types of carbohydrates, two types of starch predominantly. One of these is called slowly digestible starch which means that when we eat the food the glucose is broken down so slowly that it is fed into your body over many hours. This means that the body can burn it for energy as it is being fed in and not stored as fat or even as glycogen. The second thing is that a big percentage of the carbohydrate in beans is called resistant starch, which you just brought up, which is not even broken down into glucose or simple sugars at all. It is resistant to the body’s enzymes that can break it down, and instead it gets degraded, or we can say that the bacteria in the digestive tract ferments it which turns it into fat, not even into carbohydrates. So the carbohydrates are turned into a fat, and because it was bacteria that turned into this fat, mostly butyrate, it gets turned into this fat so far down in the digestive tract that 90% of those calories remain in the stool and get passed down the toilet. So a good percentage of those calories in beans don’t even get absorbed as calories into the body. Also, the difference between walnuts and walnut oil or sesame seeds and sesame oil, when you eat the whole nut or seed, the fat calories get absorbed so slowly that it causes fatty acid oxidation and the body can burn it. Whereas with the oil it is absorbed into the blood stream so rapidly it can’t be stored, so the body produces hormones that can burn it into fat. So when we flood the body rapidly with nutrients it can convert into fat, but when we take it slowly over many hours it cannot convert into fat. So it’s not calories in and calories out or eat less, exercise more. Actually, that’s not the answer here. We are talking about foods that have properties to resist fat storage, like mushrooms, onions, green vegetables, like beans, berries, or pomegranates. We are talking about how these foods have anti-angiogenesis effects. This is opposite from how sugar promotes fat storage or how white rice promotes fat storage due to high insulin effects. Insulin is a fat storage hormone, and insulin is pro-angiogenesis. When you eat beans, greens, berries, and seeds, things like that which have anti-angiogenesis effects, they say “no way Jose” you are not storing fat on my body. I’m blocking fat storage hormones and I’m going to stop the body from being able to store fat. I’m not going to let blood vessels grow and feed fat. Fat can’t grow if you eat the right type of calories. So, it’s really not about eating thimble-sized portions of food, here. It’s about eating generous portions of food and the right type of delicious foods that don’t promote fat storage in the body.
Caryn Hartglass: You know, they call beans the magical fruit, but I’m not going to go there. So we have a caller, and I want to see what she has to say. Lori, are you with us?
Caller: I have a question for Dr. Fuhrman. I have been a vegan for 23 years, and I exercise regularly. A few years ago I was diagnosed with Graves disease. I was desperate and took a radioactive iodine pill. I have been on Synthroid, and I feel fine with that. My TSH level is normal. A couple of years after this, the Graves got into my eyes, and I have double vision that can only be treated, I have been told, with wearing prisms which is what I am doing. I am already doing the greens, the berries, everything you are talking about. Is there anything else you can suggest that I can do.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: With Graves disease you have antibodies that attack the thyroid gland, and those antibodies have negative effects on the body including the eyes and other parts of the body. So even when the thyroid gland is removed or treated with radiation so that you don’t have it anymore, your body still has the disease. So autoimmune diseases are treatable with nutritional excellence. The answer is yes, we can monitor the benefits of this treatment style with nutrition by checking your antithyroid globulin antibodies and other markers of the disease process, even though you do not have a thyroid anymore. So the G-bomb is the essential core of treating autoimmune disease, and G-bomb stands for greens, beans, onions, mushrooms, berries, and seeds. Also, there are some episodic days of the month where we are juicing or just on water where you are just doing some fasting to help lower those antibodies, making sure your body weight is low, taking more omega 3 fatty acids which has beneficial effects, and taking probiotics will have beneficial effects. So we are talking here about putting a proper diet style together which is higher in nutrient density, lower in calories, and making sure there are no nutritional deficiencies which exist simultaneously. Like, for example, vitamin D deficiency can be permissive to autoimmune disease. So I think the answer to the question is that we have to get back to the basics of making sure you are doing everything right for superior nutrition to see if your body can fix the autoimmune process. Most likely we can make tremendous progress with Graves disease, because I have seen many, many cases of Graves disease even reverse and not needing radioablation of the thyroid gland, getting completely better, and you can still do that at this point in your life.
Caryn Hartglass: Thank you Dr. Fuhrman. We have just a few more minutes left. Can we take one more call?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Sure.
Caryn Hartglass: Okay, Eric, are you on the line?
Caller: Yes, I am. Can you hear me?
Caryn Hartglass: Yes.
Caller: Alright, thanks a lot Caryn. Dr. Fuhrman, how are you?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: I’m great!
Caller: Alright, I have a couple of questions. I’m working on nutritional excellence, and I wanted to ask you what your opinion is of the 80/10/10 book. Have you had a chance to look over the 80/10/10 book?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Well, I think you are referring to is a diet that has 10% fat, 10% protein, and 80% carbohydrate. It is mostly a fruit-heavy diet.
Caller: And, also a lot of greens.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Yes, and also a lot of greens. I have been a physician specializing in nutrition for more than 20 years, and I seen many, many people ruin their health with a diet so high in fruit. So I don’t consider this an ideal way to eat. Some people can do okay with it, but I don’t think it’s good to advocate a diet where a whole segment of the population does not thrive, getting weak hair and nails, and being prone to infection. So I do not recommend that diet style or that book.
Caller: Okay. I do have all of your books and the DVDs also, and I am mostly following the nutritarian diet. So I was just curious in that area. So I wanted to ask you about the berries and the fruits that we eat on the nutritarian diet style. I have listened to your seminar on the ten DVD set, and I wanted to ask, should we, first of all, since the oils, nuts, and seeds slow down and don’t allow glucose to be utilized. Part of the process of diabetes, where that comes from, the fat blocks the glucose from being utilized properly. So, I wanted to ask you, is it better to eat the fruits and the berries first instead of last which, I guess, is the traditional way of eating dessert, but it should be, maybe, according to natural hygiene, where the fruits and juices, the most easily digestible foods, should be eaten first without combination with the oils, nuts or seeds.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: No. I appreciate the question, but I don’t agree with that either. So I am recommending here the nutritarian diet, and thank you for supplying that term, which obviously, that is the style, high in nutrients, where people eat a variety of foods in their diet. Including green vegetables, beans, nuts and seeds, fresh fruit; whereas, the diet you were describing would be too fruit heavy and I want a variety of those foods, and I want you to eat a variety of foods at various meals. I do not want you to eat fruit-only meals. I want you to have greens and beans or greens and nuts and fruit in the meal, but we don’t want to have a fruit-only meal, and once that meal is mixed where you have, like, some pomegranates on a salad or oranges cut into a salad with a nut-based dressing; an orange, cashew, sesame-seed dressing or tomato-strawberry dressing, etc., mix the foods so that…….
Caller: It’s okay to mix the fruits, and the beans, and all that?
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: It’s okay to mix the food, and actually what you are saying is that the other foods that have low-glycemic effects mitigate or lessen the glycemic effects of the fruit when eaten in the same meal. So the benefit is to actually eat the foods together, to eat a fruit with a salad or eat beans with some nuts, and when you eat these foods together, the fats from the nuts and seeds increase the absorption of the anti-cancer phytochemicals in the green vegetables, lowering the risk of cancer later in life. One of the studies done that is so impressive is the [7-day inventive study] showing that those people who ate nuts and seeds on a regular basis lived, on the average, six to seven years longer than those people on a low-fat diet that did not have nuts and seeds in their diet. This is because the fat increases the absorption of the beneficial phytochemicals that prevent cancer. So what I am saying is forget about natural hygiene food combinations and forget about 80/10/10. The nutritarian diet has various foods mixed together in the meals because the foods together act synergistically to protect our health.
Caller: Thank you.
Caryn Hartglass: Oh, Dr. Fuhrman, you are the best, and I wish we had more time, because I could listen to you all day. I guess I’m just going to have to go to your website www.DrFuhrman.com and read all of your newsletters, listen to all of your telecasts, and take advantage of everything that is up there, and read all your books like I have been. You’re just loaded with wonderful information that is so helpful and reassuring. So just keep doing what you are doing. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Dr. Joel Fuhrman: Oh, thank you Caryn! It’s a pleasure being on your show, and best of luck for what you’re doing.
Caryn Hartglass: Thank you, and take care! We are going to take a little break. That was Joel Fuhrman, and I am Caryn Hartglass. You are listening to It’s All About Food. While we are on a break, you can go to my website www.ResponsibleEatingAndLiving.com where we have recipes. All of the podcasts from this show are archived up there, and there are videos, so visit! Now it’s time for a break, and we will be right back.
Transcribed by Ann Dungey, 2/25/2013