Lisa Kemmerer, Animals and Social Justice


lisa_turkeyLisa Kemmerer is a philosopher-activist dedicated to working against oppression, whether on behalf of the environment, nonhuman animals, or disempowered human beings. Her books include In Search of Consistency: Ethics and Animals ; Animals and World Religions; Sister Species: Women, Animals, and Social Justice; Call to Compassion: Reflections on Animal Advocacy; Speaking Up for Animals: An Anthology of Women’s Voices ; and Primate People: Saving Nonhuman Primates through Education, Advocacy, and Sanctuary. Lisa has hiked, biked, kayaked, backpacked, and traveled widely, and is currently associate professor of philosophy and religions at Montana State University Billings.


CARYN HARTGLASS: Hello everybody, I’m Caryn Hartglass and its time for another It’s All About Food here on September 2nd, 2014. Did you have a nice Labor Day weekend? What did you do? I labored, I always labor, but I love my work so its ok to just work and work is what I do, right? And gosh I have been just praising the weather here in New York how wonderful it’s been and I think the real New York summer weather has finally arrived. It’s been hot and humid and there’s nothing that will keep my hair from going up vertically. It’s just all over the place with this humidity. I hope you’re staying cool wherever you are. Let’s bring on my first guest. I’m really looking forward to speaking with Lisa Kemmerer. She’s a philosopher activist dedicated to working against oppression, whether on behalf of the environment, nonhuman animals or disempowered human beings. Her books, and there are many, include In Search of Consistency: Ethics and Animals, Animals and World Religions, Sister Species: Women, Animals and Social Justice, Call to Compassion: Reflections on Animal Advocacy, Speaking Up for Animals: An Anthology of Women’s Voices, Primate People: Saving Non-Human Primates through Education, Advocacy and Sanctuary. Lisa has hiked, biked, kyaked, backpacked and traveled widely, and is currently associate professor of philosophy and religions at Montana State University – Billings. Hi Lisa!

LISA KEMMERER: Hi, how are you today?

CARYN HARTGLASS: Good, I’m so glad we finally made this happen.

LISA KEMMERER: Yes, me too, thank you for your patience.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Well, thank you for your time. So let’s talk about you. So my first question is what inspired you to do the work that you do working against oppression?

LISA KEMMERER: Wow, what a question – it’s huge. I think that, from my experience, people who tend to work for social justice have a lot of things of their own past that have made them aware of injustice.

CARYN HARTGLASS: You know, I don’t like to say the ends justify the means, but often something happens that motivates us to – and I don’t know your history – that motivates us to do better so other people don’t have to experience what we’ve experienced or anything like what we’ve experienced.

LISA KEMMERER: Yeah, and you know, we can don’t have to say the ends justify the means because it wasn’t intentional. These are things that happened in our past that we had no say over and the question can become “what will we do with them now to bring a better world?”.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Mhmm, I like that. That’s part of how we manage our past – realizing that we weren’t responsible for some of the things that happened. Now that we are responsible we can make things better.

LISA KEMMERER: Exactly so. And you know you say that – just yesterday I was talking to someone about ends and means and organizations and how some of them do use the idea that the ends can justify the means and it was the idea of insiding among groups trying to bring change. This is one of the things that brings a tremendous amount of fighting is those who think that the ends do justify the means and those who will absolutely not compromise their principles in trying to reach the ends.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Well that just jumps into one of the things we wanted to talk about today which is: the insiding within a certain organization or a certain community of somewhat like-minded people but we disagree on certain things. Something I’ve been bringing up a lot on this program and some of my listeners have been asking me what I think, and it’s a difficult conversation but for those of us that are vegan (although that’s not necessarily part of it but I think its an important part) for those of us that are against that exploitation primarily of animals and we also realize the connection with people and the environment, the way to make change is not the same for all of us. Some believe that small steps will get us to the ultimate end and some believe we must be absolutely black and white and believe that everything we preach has to be exactly what we believe in and we cannot promote small steps on the way.

LISA KEMMERER: Right, yeah. And I tend to be very open to all – I think that the dialogue is healthy. I think the diversity is healthy. So I think that the whole picture is a wonderful thing and if we just approach each other as common cause rather than common enemies, we can really benefit from that dialogue. Rather than fighting with each other we can spend our energy trying to bring change in the world. And yet we can still learn from one another by talking about different approaches and the pros and cons of different approaches. And there are pros and cons, there are sacrifices that some make that others aren’t willing to make. And just putting them on the table, understanding them, I think that’s very important.

CARYN HARTGLASS: I’m with you there. I know what I can do personally and I know what I can promote personally but if someone wants to do it a little differently, I don’t want to condemn them. I don’t think that’s productive.


CARYN HARTGLASS: I’m not a promoter of Facebook, I use it, it’s constantly changing and I don’t know that it’s going in the right direction. There’s so much negativity there and it just upsets me when I see people that I believe have the same goal in the end, are really putting each other down getting there.

LISA KEMMERER: Yes. And spending a lot of time doing it, and that time could be spent – I could really do things with that time! I could write entire books with the time I see people wasting arguing with each other.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yeah, it looks like that’s what you’re doing.

LISA KEMMERER: Well I don’t go on Facebook. I don’t engage in those kind of lengthy, time-consuming discussions. I know that they’re out there, but that isn’t where I want my energy to go.

CARYN HARTGLASS: I like Facebook for posting family pictures for my family and seeing their pictures. It’s just a fun place to unwind and see some cute pictures, I like posting recipes – friendly, happy things for people who want to unwind and see some nice things like that. But the negativity – it’s not the place for it. I don’t think any place is the place for it.

LISA KEMMERER: It’s also a really good place where people can find you. I am very fortunate, I have a wonderful student who’s graduated and gone on to do wonderful things in social justice. Her name is Morgan Bennett and actually keeps me a page on Facebook so I can be found there but I don’t have to deal with it so I feel very fortunate about that.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yes, it’s a good place to be found. I think I might have found you there actually, I’m not sure where I found you but I know –

LISA KEMMERER: Thanks Morgan!

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yeah so dialogue is important and how do we do that? When someone is angry and, is there a way to dialogue so that anger is dissipated? Especially when we’re on the same path.

LISA KEMMERER: I’m comparatively old in this movement now, and one thing I’ve learned is: save your energy. There are some people worth talking to and some that you should give a pass. Everybody is not worth talking to. Of course when I was younger, everybody was worth talking to when you have the energy and to some extent you have more time.


LISA KEMMERER: So now I know that if someone is not interested in the dialogue, if you can see that they have a very set way of being or they don’t invite conversation, they have to invite me into a conversation and then I will have the conversation. But if they’re just taking a stand, I will just acknowledge their stand and sometimes won’t even bother to say my own because what is the point if they’re not interested?

CARYN HARTGLASS: Very good, very good. Alright so you let me know that you’re working – you have a bunch of books coming out.

LISA KEMMERER: I do – two anthologies and one that I’ve written called Eating Earth that looks at one of the social justice issues and the environmental aspects of our dietary choice.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Okay we talked a little bit about that on this program, did you make some discoveries in this book?

LISA KEMMERER: What I like best about this book?


LISA KEMMERER: I don’t know if discovery is the combination of things that are in it. It is not just on factory farming and the environment, which there is some coverage on. There is a whole chapter on that and it goes in depth and basically points out very clearly – our diet is the number one contributor to environmental degradation on at least five different areas, everything from the global climate change to deforestation to the water depletion to soil erosion – all of those, it’s the number one contributor. But the book also has a whole chapter on fishing, on fishing and seas and water; another aspect of our dietary choices. And finally, hunting. It really looks closely – some people will quickly turn to fish or to hunting to try to say ‘oh this is the better choice’. The book clearly shows that neither of these are the better choice; the better choice is to quit eating animals. It is the only choice if you actually care about the environment.

CARYN HARTGLASS: That’s good. I look forward to reading that. And when does that come out?


CARYN HARTGLASS: Okay. I didn’t even – well maybe I knew it when I first reached out to you.

LISA KEMMERER: I didn’t even know it so that’s why you didn’t know it. I don’t think I’ve put it out anywhere yet. It’s not even on my current resume.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Does it have a title?

LISA KEMMERER: Yes, Eating Earth.


LISA KEMMERER: After the colon I think it’s Dietary Choices and Planetary Health or something very like that.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Great, well all the best. How do you write three books at a time?

LISA KEMMERER: Well, it’s an excellent choice because I’m also teaching, a full time job. I think it happens that way, well it certainly happens that way unintentionally. I’ll start something, and for instance the other two are anthologies, so while I’m waiting for the essays to come in I can’t seem to contain myself and then the essays will pile in and I’ll send those essays back and I’ll start something else so they kind of slowly crawl along together. One of them I started at least six years ago, maybe seven. It just takes a long time to put them together so, I don’t know, I need different things to work on so I don’t go nuts and sometimes there’s a lull in the activity and sometimes I don’t have a sense about doing something other than my work during those lulls.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Well I think this is where the small steps really make a difference in getting to your goal. There are some big issues that I’d like to see big giant steps immediately like end factory farming – done. But in terms of accomplishing things in our life, small steps, working on everything in small doses is the way to ultimately reach our goals.

LISA KEMMERER: And you know one thing, when you say the conversation, talking to people and bringing changes, dealing with others in the movement – that’s one of the things I always turn back to. One of my good friends who works for HSUS, Alex Buri, brought it up to me initially. She said, “these people who say there’s only one way and it’s the right way, what I want to ask is what are you doing?”. Yes maybe there is only one way and only one right way, good, what are you doing to get us there? So just attacking others in the movement isn’t it. So there’s so many different little ways and little steps but I think it is true that there’s a significant number – I could name a few but will not – who simply spend their time attacking the work of others and frankly don’t seem to be doing anything to actually change the ones who are consuming animals and exploiting them in other ways.

CARYN HARTGLASS: That’s a great question to ask anyone and I use that from time to time on a lot of different issues, not just on animal-related issues because there’s so much violence going on in the world today.

LISA KEMMERER: Absolutely.

CARYN HARTGLASS: What a lot of people do – I get these emails that were forwarded and forwarded and forwarded and then I don’t even have time to read them but occasionally when I glance at one it’s just filled with such vile hatred and I think ‘okay, what are you doing about it?’ Sending an email? That’s not doing anything.

LISA KEMMERER: Yes. And there’s one – I ask it with racism, with sexism, with homophobia, with ageism, with ablism all of those are the same thing. And it’s pretty sketchy when it actually comes to engaging with these, what they’re willing to give up, what they’re willing to admit, it shrinks considerably.

CARYN HARTGLASS: What they’re willing to give up – exactly.

LISA KEMMERER: Yes, that’s right.


LISA KEMMERER: And that’s what it comes down to if you really care about social justice. You have to give up your privelages.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yes. Not all of them, just a little bit here and there.

LISA KEMMERER: That’s right. And the ones you give up you should never have had and you shouldn’t want them. So at the end of the day it doesn’t feel like a sacrifice it just feels like what’s right.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Gosh, it should feel good, I think.

LISA KEMMERER: Right, like changing our diet.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Now you’re going to the conference in Luxemburg, and I’ve read a little but about that. I actually – I was trying to bring a little bit of that conference here by interviewing a number of different people who are going to that conference.

LISA KEMMERER: Oh wonderful.

CARYN HARTGLASS: I had Friederike Schmitz on the show and Frederike Schmitz.


CARYN HARTGLASS: And so, have you been to their conferences over there before?


CARYN HARTGLASS: And what are they like?

LISA KEMMERER: They’re really fun. First of all, it’s just wonderful to go to Europe actually. I mean our country is so gigantic –


LISA KEMMERER: Yea so it would be nice to have some different languages and different history – very different history. So it’s fun to go for that. But the conferences are wonderful and there’s a different flavor to them. It has been a few years since I went to this particular one but it has a very liberationist feel which I liked. I do a lot of academic conferences and they tend to be less liberationist so I find that very refreshing.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Okay now I haven’t been in Europe for five years and I can’t believe it’s been that long and I used to live in France for four years where I never met another vegetarian in the early 90s and its so exciting now that they’re out of the closet.

LISA KEMMERER: Wow. Yeah. But it’s taken off too. It’s totally taken off, and not just vegetarian but vegan. It’s out there – it’s happening.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yeah, but I got the impression it was more serious and maybe that’s changed too.

LISA KEMMERER: What an interesting thought. Well you know there are flavors to countries, and the Brits have one of my favorite senses of humor anywhere on the planet. So, having said that, they may be serious in some ways, but they have a great sense of humor. Now France, okay maybe they’re  more serious but the dogs can go right into the restaurants so really, who’s a little more lighthearted there? The dogs are everywhere and right in the restaurants, they can go into grocery stores – they can go anywhere. So it depends on what you mean by – what you mean, I guess.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Well I remember going to one of the early Veggie Pride Parades in Paris and we have one here in New York City. It’s very different feeling here in New York – it’s more just fun and festive – and I don’t know if it’s changed over there in Europe but it was all the dark issues. And it is dark; it’s just horrible what humans will do, not only to humans but to animals and they wanted to bring all of that out.

LISA KEMMERER: It’s true, they tend to wear dark clothes there and be much more –


LISA KEMMERER: I don’t know what the word is but much more formal. We’re not very formal, we’re a younger nation that’s a little savage in our ways and you can feel that difference when you’re there, there’s a formality to life that we lack.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Well, I just feel it’s almost like a load has been lifted knowing that this dialogue is going on in Europe and it’s going on all over the world where it didn’t feel like it was before. It just gives me a lot of inspiration.

LISA KEMMERER: Yeah. You know what, it isn’t just a dialogue anymore about animal rights. It truly is, I’m speaking on the juncture with sexism, with the environment and then with the conference in Germany at the end of my trip there it’s on religion. So three different intersections and the on in Bonn, Germany is completely on religion and animals so our scope is so much bigger and what we’re looking at – we have some actually nuance now that is growing and strong.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Well you work against oppression, and to me it’s all the same. And when people get to that point where they see exploitation, just generic exploitation, how we just take advantage of whomever, whatever, we can without any thought about it. When you see that, it makes it, I think, a lot easier to make change in your own life and unfortunately people need to go step by step, they only see it in one area before they see it in another area. But I think now we’re starting to connect more dots.

LISA KEMMERER: Yeah I think we are too. And I think as a Caucasian I need to have some sensitivity when I think about these subjects. I think what would say, a black female lesbian say about that, what is her take on how these fit together? Then looking at the animals themselves, if they were speaking our language to us, what they would say about oppression, where they are systematically killed. So ok, as a female I know I meet up with discrimination. But to compare that with what happens to a pig or say a black feminist lesbian, its just a really different picture of what the experiences are, and I think just trying to be aware of that. I don’t know how much we can understand the experiences of other, but we can certainly listen and try to be sensitive to those differences.

CARYN HARTGLASS: One of the things that’s challenging is language, and I’ve learned the heard way, putting my foot in my mouth from time to time over the decades where I was like ‘Oh, that was not the right thing to say’.

LISA KEMMERER: Oh heavens, yeah.

CARYN HARTGLASS: But you know sometimes you don’t know until you say it and see what the reaction is and then the light goes on and there is so much that’s in our language that’s just normal – I mean normal is not a good word but –

LISA KEMMERER: Oh I hear you though.

CARYN HARTGLASS: You don’t realize what damage you’re doing to someone else by saying certain things that are just so common.

LISA KEMMERER: Everyone does it. We all make mistakes, we cannot have full awareness of the experiences of others and I think we need to apologize and when we’re offended, we need to accept apologies. I think that no one is completely clean and if we’re going to work together we need to be able to accept our mistakes and be forgiving of others.

CARYN HARTGLASS: I sure would like to think about what animals think about what we do to them.


CARYN HARTGLASS: I mean you mentioned you don’t know what they think or what they would say, but I would sure like to know.

LISA KEMMERER: We’ve got some pretty good guesses about a few things they’d say.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yeah, yeah. Now, animals and religion. Can you give us some idea about what you’ll be talking about or discussing? That part is really fascinating, the whole religious – I’m not a religious person but I respect them as long as they aren’t causing pain and suffering to anyone.

LISA KEMMERER: Right, it’s a great question you ask. The religion side of things is neglected and most of the people in the movement will say they aren’t religious but what makes me sad is that they’re saying therefore that’s why they don’t know anything about it. The reason I write about it is because it is one of the most effective ways to bring change. When I am dealing with someone who doesn’t – who is an atheist let’s say – I tell them all the horrible things that are going on and they can simply say to me ‘oh gosh that’s horrible, now get away from me, I’m trying to buy my groceries’. But, when you say that to someone from any one of the major religious traditions, they cannot say that. If they take their religion seriously, they are bound to what’s in their texts and core teachings and religious studies, they’re tied to that. And when you call them on it, it has a very different effect than on someone who is not committed to some moral code like that that they are tied to. So it is an extremely effective form of the advocacy but to use it, we have to actually know the traditions. So I would say the movement is remiss in not knowing these basic teachings and in not taking them on board so when they meet someone – I have almost never failed to talk to someone who is religious about these issues because, I say I wont talk to people who are closed, they cannot be closed. They cannot tell me that their religion teaches cruelty or their religion believes that causing others suffering is okay. So it is a very important field and I encourage everyone out there to know the basics, know the fundamentals of religions that will call people to a kinder way of life.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yeah, I like that. I was raised Jewish. One of the things I like to do, I love family gatherings, traditional foods, people getting together – that part of religion or culture or whatever, holidays are great. One of the things that I do is veganize all the recipes. This year I did a vegan gefilte fish and I can’t wait for the Passover holiday to come around again.

LISA KEMMERER: Oh my goodness, good for you! Food advocacy – I love it.

CARYN HARTGLASS: I mean I haven’t seen one of those before except I make it out of almonds and almonds are not very politically correct these days because they are coming from drought lands in California and almonds are getting a rap but –

LISA KEMMERER: That’s okay, almonds have those omega-3’s that we need anyway so –

CARYN HARTGLASS: I’m not down on almonds, it’s just I’m reading so many blog posts about people that are upset about almonds. What do they want us to do, drink milk? Cow’s milk?

LISA KEMMERER: Isn’t it so true that it just so hard, you cannot please everyone. But by golly, that is no excuse not to try to make the changes you’re willing to make against the most horrendous things we’re doing.

CARYN HARTGLASS: So back to religion and that, so the tactic is to speak to religious people and bring up the parts of their religion that have to do with compassion?

LISA KEMMERER: Yeah but that’s all that I do in Animals and World Religions. It goes through each religion and explores the animal-friendly teachings and this isn’t to say I’m looking at some fringe element, these are core teachings. These are foundational teachings. These are teachings that no one in the tradition can ignore. And it also shows, at the end of each chapter I give contemporary activists working in those traditions to bring change for animals because they know it’s part of their tradition.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Now we have the Jewish Vegetarians of North America and we have the Chrtistian Vegetarian Association, do you know of any Muslim Vegetarian Societies?

LISA KEMMERER: Yes, there is!

CARYN HARTGLASS: Oh, good I’ve been looking.

LISA KEMMERER: Islamic Concern, I think what it’s called. And you know, many organizations, I think both PETA and HSUS now have a link where you can click and find out about religious organizations working with animals. Islam is one of the ones I think on both sites, but I also mention them in the book Animals and World Religions. So I’m not real sure but I can certainly look it up so if somebody gets a hold of me and asks or you can also go on the web and find these things but I think it’s Islamic Concern.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Okay I haven’t looked – I looked a few years ago and couldn’t find anything so I think it’s time to look again.

LISA KEMMERER: Yeah and it’s changing. It’s a growing and changing field.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yeah which is very exciting. We’re moving forward.

LISA KEMMERER: It’s encouraging. And you know, you’ve been in this long enough to know just how discouraging it could be.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Yeah. Yes I do. So you’re in Montana.

LISA KEMMERER: I am. Talk about discouraging.

CARYN HARTGLASS: And there is a vegan restaurant, isn’t there? If not more than one.

LISA KEMMERER: Well there’s certainly not one where I live in Billings, Montana, the biggest city.

CARYN HARTGLASS: There isn’t one.

LISA KEMMERER: There’s not even a vegetarian restaurant.


LISA KEMMERER: Now this is Billings, Montana. Its possible Missoula –

CARYN HARTGLASS: I think it is Missoula. How far is that?

LISA KEMMERER: Yeah they might have a vegetarian one. Five hours drive, six.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Oh yeah it’s a big state.

LISA KEMMERER: Big state. Yeah. Lot of different between buildings and, yeah.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Okay so it’s not very veg-friendly there.

LISA KEMMERER: Well you know it’s changing. It is definitely changing. I’ve now been here more than a decade and I have 35 students per class, I probably have every semester 100-120 students and there is no class where I don’t cover all of these facets of animal exploitation and it’s been long enough – there have been changes. I can see it when I go grocery shopping. There’s a new grocery store downtown and it actually has all of the vegan products – it’s so exciting. It just opened.


LISA KEMMERER: So more and more I’m seeing that there’s sensitivity to the fact that there is a market for these things here in Billings, Montana.

CARYN HARTGLASS: That’s so good. Now do your students know what they’re getting when they sign up for your classes?

LISA KEMMERER: I assume some of them do.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Do you surprise some of them with information that you teach?

LISA KEMMERER: Of course I do. And especially early on before I had a reputation. I had one guy come in and sit down and say ‘I can’t wait to get to the animal part’. He could not wait. He was one of the exploiters. By the time we got to the animal part he knew he had nothing to say because I had built a platform on which he could not, he knew there was no –

CARYN HARTGLASS: Wow. Did he think he was going to have a debate with you?

LISA KEMMERER: Yeah he thought he was going to show me how wrong I was. And he just lost his oomph as time went on.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Wow. This is the power of education and we need it everywhere.

LISA KEMMERER: It is so exciting! The people that have the degrees – there’s actually Animal Studies programs – it’s so exciting! There’s now – the education, yes, just as activists we all need it. There’s now degrees in animal studies and there’s courses so we’ll have more and more teachers out there who know this stuff and their students aren’t going to slip through without hearing it. Yeah, and it’s going to be good for animals but it’s going to be good for the environment and it’s going to be good for people. I continually think you know you mentioned people spending energy, too much energy on Facebook and I think we are capable of so much greatness and we are wasting our time.

LISA KEMMERER: I swear our culture encourages us or wants us to.

CARYN HARTGLASS: To waste our time.

LISA KEMMERER: Yes. Not – we’re not causing trouble when we’re on Facebook.

CARYN HARTGLASS: We could be accomplishing things that aren’t even imaginable because we haven’t gotten to that place. But we could – I mean just thinking of what we’ve done in the last 50 years is amazing and the next 10 are going to be incredible if, well…

LISA KEMMERER: I really want to tell young people put your gadgets down. Be in the real world. Talk to people who are present. And I know that the internet gives us the ability to have lots of information and to connect with others far away and some of my friends say ‘You know it would be easier for you to be in Billings if you connected with vegans all around the world’. And I know it’s true but I’m connecting with people in Billings and it’s how I bring change. And yes sometimes it’s depressing and lonely and I sometimes do need to and will connect with people outside and with my vegan friends elsewhere. But I just think we spend much too much time on just not dealing with real people in our real space having our own real lives and I don’t think that’s helpful to our movement.

CARYN HARTGLASS: I agree and hopefully it’s going to change. But Lisa, thank you for spending this half hour with me. I really enjoyed it and I hope to get to meet you sometime and I’m looking forward to Eating Earth, that’s going to be a great book I know it.

LISA KEMMERER: Thank you and thank you for all the good that you do. And wonderful to talk with you.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Okay and say Guten Tag to everyone in Luxemburg when you get there.

LISA KEMMERER: Shall do. Will do. Take care.

CARYN HARTGLASS: Okay. Thank you.


CARYN HARTGLASS: Bye bye. Well that was great. That was Lisa Kemmerer, and we’re going to take a little break now and be back with the Esselstyn’s, Dr. Esselstyn, Ann Esselstyn and their daughter Jane talking about the Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease cookbook. Stay with me.

Transcribed October 14, 2014 by Alissa Moody

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